AuHunterTwo

Claim Trespassing, Posting On The Internet - Youtube

43 posts in this topic

Hey Guys,

 

My intro,

I've been a reader and miner for over 20 years, I have keep to myself, worked my claims and try to support the local detecting and mining activities and folks in my area. Lately I've had people digging open old tunnels on my claims (2) and of course shooting up my signs, equipment and turning one claim I have in the mountains into a 4x4 hill climb. All of which I reported to our US Forest Service to the reply of let us know when there doing it so we can site them. HA right! I can't live on the claim and my cell can't call you? I'll leave a note asking when they plan to there next destructive visit. Sorry I ranted.

 

Moving on to my question to all of you and those of you that maybe already be involved and didn't even know it. About 2 months ago I discovered there is a Male Person "fhood" posting on YouTube where his 'Channel" is exploring "Abandon Mines" when I watched his video at the "Abandoned Yucca Grove Mine Tunnel" in the video he un-packages and removes the BLM Claim Paperwork for Nov 2012 and looks at it on camera. He said "Its mining Claim Paperwork" he even subtitles it in the video, (see Photos) and then walked into the mine shaft to "explore". This guys got big eggs!

 

I commented on his "Channel" about it was a big mistake about it being abandoned and told him that he was in fact trespassing as you saw in the paperwork you opened and could be arrested for it. I said there were safety reasons and he was showing children that its safe to go into mines as they watch his videos as well. He deleted my comment and has gone on to make more videos of others mines and you can clearly see they are being worked and have no trespassing signs posted. You can also see a deleted on the particular video.

 

I'm not sure if he thinks he's Indiana Jones or a History Buff, thinks the History Channel will give him a job or something else but I'm sure hes not an angel and probable has a nice collection of souvenirs from his travels to our properties. Now I'm no lawyer but when you video tape yourself entering into another persons property you just gave proof of a crime. I would like to see this person have his collection of videos removed and criminal charges brought up against him and others if there are any accomplices.

 

I'm adding pictures from his Video mentioned above where he enters the Yucca Grove Mine owned by Gulch Lode Mining as seen on the claim paperwork. Clearly this person thinks they are above the laws in many states as he boosts of traveling to CA, AZ and Nev.

 

How or what should we do as a mining community to find and discourage people who Trespass and steal our hard work and money. We have enough State and Federal trouble without someone like this dying in a cave in or children being killed from imitating him. This Guy scares me and if you don't believe me Google fhood hes gone into over 300 mines now. Maybe one of yours.

 

Whats your opinion and solution? Am I over reacting due to vandalism on my own claims? Should I just forget about it and wait for the worst to happen? What if the worst is on your Claim? Do you want to pay to dig him out or just his body? For sure hes not doing us Miners of any-type any favors by invading our propety and showing others it's OK to do it as well. Why wouldn't the Forest Service or BLM go after someone who documents they have broken the law? I haven't spoken to them but, would they help us? Why can't we have the law on or side for once, we're trying to be responsible and environmental as possible

 

Thanks for reading and hope you comment. Let's help each other as a common interest.

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Thats definately liableous-turn it in to BLM/FS and see is all ya can do. had claims for over 45 years and always been the same same-shoot my signs,trash the place,hoot/holler and all that wonderful stuff. BUT uncovering mines now THATS some real bs. Nice of the idjet to video his felony mineral trespass....sic sic sic..feel your pain-John

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Thanks John and Geowizard for your input, he definitely goes on to property marked with no trespassing and the last one I watched was 2 or 3 levels down into the workings. This is the kind of guy that is going to get hurt and complain to the Forest Service that a Hard Rock mine is a hazard, sue the owner for not have a dynamite proof door and the BLM will have every excuse they need to shut us all down. Dredges were first and any mine with an open Audit next.

 

Please give me your opinion, I know claims are open to hunters, which is dumb, a guy or guys coming to your claim with rifles and hand guys in camouflage? How smart is that law? I meet them every Oct on my claim, armed as well.

 

Why does everyone stick there head in the sand when people like this are blatantly entering areas marked no Trespassing? What the video he goes over fences with marked signs. What's it take to pull a community to work together before the problem is being shoved down your throat and your loosing money. This is easy compared to working a claim! Are you scared of the guy doing a video about miners. What if its one of your families children that copy him?

I've always made safety #1 with my working, whats it gonna take for you to become the same way?

 

Out of this community of Miners there has to be more than 2 people with opinions or options, this guy has gone into over 300 properties.Others follow his lead, do you invite people to come to your house when your not home?  

 

Sorry, but I'm pretty passionate about keeping my mine open, I feel sorry for the ones who will lose there mine from boneheads like him by doing nothing and standing by or letting someone be injured in there mine.

 

Sorry I ranted again, Its all I have left.

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Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 

Sorry I took so long to reply I spent the weekend was talking with the Forest Service about my claims and the YouTube trespasser and there going to look into his Videos and checking into him for the trespassing signs he ignores. When his channel disappears you'll know why.

 

In the mean time as Geowizard said: post lots of signs and here's a kicker, they said I can put up "Trail Cams"  they are being used to Identify and collect evidence against destructive trespassers and claim jumpers as well. For myself being in the mountains this works out great having a tons of trees to place them in is no problem at all and I can place along the trail to get clear license plate numbers. I even hear it's hard for the owners to find sometimes because they camouflage so well. I'm not worried about security anymore, the forest service is will to help me prosecute out as long as I can I identify the law breakers and show proof. Also I'll need signage that the area has "Video Surveillance posted".

 

As for the guy on YouTube I hope he never has an accident on one of your properties, I just hope he does. Personally I going to protect myself and close (cave in) all my open tunnels entrances except one that I'm working and put up a metal door, lots of signage and point a trail cam at it. I'll have lots of evidence against whomever wants to destroy my door or shoot up my signage from 4 different angels. I might get to see some wild life as well, nothing wrong with that!

 

I know this does nothing for you guys in the dessert or on a treeless mountain but if your the inventive type, you maybe able to find a way to keep these lowlifes form taking your minerals. Stop being the prey and communicate with the miners in your area and put these thieves where they belong, behind bars. Write a plate number and car and person description if possible when you see someone on your neighbors claim.

 

I really wished I had more input from this community, miners used to be strong, protective and pillars for the communities, there voice carried weight, as employers we created jobs and communities. I would have though some of you would be concerned about children and young people following in Mr. YouTube's foolish footsteps, and yet no one commented about that? I guess no one has kids or grand kids? But today as miners were nothing but targets for lowlifes, tree huggers, under educated state and federal employees.

 

Good luck to you all, may you find your mother lode and I get to read about you in the pages of the Mining Journal.

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"Why does everyone stick there head in the sand when people like this are blatantly entering areas marked no Trespassing? What the video he goes over fences with marked signs. What's it take to pull a community to work together before the problem is being shoved down your throat and your loosing money. This is easy compared to working a claim! Are you scared of the guy doing a video about miners. What if its one of your families children that copy him?

I've always made safety #1 with my working, whats it gonna take for you to become the same way?

I really wished I had more input from this community, miners used to be strong, protective and pillars for the communities, there voice carried weight, as employers we created jobs and communities. I would have though some of you would be concerned about children and young people following in Mr. YouTube's foolish footsteps, and yet no one commented about that? I guess no one has kids or grand kids? But today as miners were nothing but targets for lowlifes, tree huggers, under educated state and federal employees."

Well, since you asked for a comment, mine would be that you have an issue and are angry everybody is not pitching in to help you with your problem. Then you accuse everyone of sticking their heads in the sand and not caring about the safety of children.

Really?

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The Federal Mineral Grant is an individual grant of rights - not collective. You and I did not gain any rights when another man made his location. He earned that right by locating a valuable mineral deposit. It then becomes his duty to maintain occupation of his claimed location.

 

Sound familiar? An earned right with a duty attached to that right. Neither the right nor the duty belongs to anyone but the locator.

 

Only the claim owner or his agent has a right to prosecute mineral trespass. Your neighbor or a gang of internet do gooders or the Forest Service have no power to enforce the rights earned by another grantee on their claim.

 

No offense intended but I am appalled by the number of people I meet who feel they have the right and duty to police other peoples activities or property. It's one thing to help your neighbor out but an entirely different matter to complain to surface managers about videos found on the internet.

 

It is up to each miner to notice and protect the public from their own inattention, clumsyness or stupidity. Geowizard gave you the straight scoop. Holes in the ground are what we do. It's a basic and thousands of years old practice to keep the general public from being injured or allowing them free access to take your valuable minerals. Lock it up or expect that men will do what they have always done when discovering unprotected treasure.

 

Asking surface managers or other miners to help protect those miners who do not observe the age old customs and practices of miners is futile. Besides those customs there is a large body of law in this country that enforces that concept of mineral locators self reliance and responsibility in relation to their mining activities.

 

If you want collective rights enforcement on demand make a civil rights complaint. You won't find the Mining Acts (1872) anywhere in the Civil Rights Act (1964). Two very different rights.

 

If you are concerned about other miner's problems talk to those other miners. Please don't try to drag government agents into acting on your sense of justice for the benefit of miner's you don't even know. They might just have a different point of view than you do.

 

Just one man's opinion

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To Steve:

 

Where did I say I had a problem and that I wanted help with a problem? Read it again and again until you understand what is written above this reply. Everything I wrote is about YOU not me. This is the Forum for the California Mining Journal. 
 
A journal is written communication about the mining community. 
 

If you read the first post and then the second you would have seen it's not my problem it's everyone in the mining community. I was alerting all of you, If you think I'm angry ask any CA Dredger how they feel about whats happening to them..

 
A community is everyone who mines, your family, extended family, friends. I did what I thought was helpful, by alerting everyone to a concern, where were you after my first post? No comment from you, any advise how to stop a obvious idiot who goes into mines marked no trespassing? Nothing from you. I'm pissed at myself for not closing my tunnels sooner, its people like you have no idea what it takes to mine in California. No one is on your side, especially state and government. The Media will crucify you for moving a rock. This is the only voice left for the shrinking mining community.
 
I don't want anybody to pitch in, I never asked for a lynch mob. I asked for opinions. I obviously got yours to late for the discussion as we all have agreed there is nothing to do but protect ourselves from people like you who like to kick people after it's said and done. 
 
So to reopen the discussion just for you, lets take a moment and think about what age range watches the most YouTube videos? Remember YouTube is now standard on New TV's, Xbox, Playstation, Cell Phones. Children and teens do, and who is always the worst decision makers for safety? Children and teens, because they have no fear and education. A hole in a mountain is as safe to them as their home. What you think your the only one with kids? We have 4 children, so don't even try to lecture me.
 
It seems respect is all but a memory now, by the way people feel they are entitled to do what they want with no regard for consequences and your comment proves that. If you don't have a way to improve the situation keep any negative comments to yourself. I can't believe I even have to spell it out in these simplistic terms. No one wants to help but they always have an opinion that someone is angry. Someone should be angry, no one would have been alerted to this person, except by someone who thought it would be helpful for others.
 
So OK. Lets talk liability. Do you have a hard rock mine? Probably not, do you own a car? Probably yes. Do you leave the keys in it and tell your children to go play in it? No, and why not because if they were to hit sometime with your car you are liable to pay for the damage. Same goes for a mining tunnel someone goes past every sign and door you put up, it's still the owner who has to pay for the damages physical and sometimes death benefits. Now I don't want to have to go through that but you won't care because it's not your problem. and you only see a man that's angry. The only thing I'm mad at is those is people who profit from others losses and myself for trying to educate you.
 
I'll say it again I only wanted to alert the mining community of a person who's going into Hard Rock mines that are clearly marked as no trespassing, He is describing the mines as "Abandoned"  (over 300 now) as you can clearly see there are some open claims that are less than a year old. He is a safety concern and is trespassing and he has filmed himself doing it. If you don't see a problem with that  then you should read up on the laws. I have rights and everyone in community has the same rights down to a person with just a shovel and a pan. even you and your right to express that statement you made, though I don't think I you read what was written correctly.
 
Anyone else think looking after our children, your neighbor or the others in this small community is stupid? Please express your thoughts and try to use more than "Really" to help benefit the discussion.
 
By the way, I was helped by Geowizard, without his input and John's. My tunnels would still be open and and someone could have been hurt in them and for all I know you are the one making the videos and just striking back at me for exposing you. 
 
Doesn't feel good when things untrue are said about you do they?

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To Clay

 

Thank you, and duly noted, I hope others realize they are on their own. Protect what you have and and what you want to keep.

 
I call this a mining community, because were all effected by the same laws, I'm guessing that is what your referring to as a collective? That were not I agree. You say Maintain occupation of the property? If I could Patent the claim and live on I surely would but that isn't legal anymore. Maybe you forgot that no one has been able to patent a claim in I don't know how many years ??? Other wise we wouldn't be having this conversation. 
 
Clay said "Asking surface managers or other miners to help protect those miners who do not observe the age old customs and practices of miners is futile" 
Where the heck do you get that information??? Miners don't help one another???  What the heck is this forum about. You lost all credibility with that statement. What age old customs are you referring to? Shoot them and steal there gold?
 
Then you say: 
Quote Clay "If you are concerned about other miner's problems talk to those other miners. Please don't try to drag government agents into acting on your sense of justice for the benefit of miner's you don't even know. They might just have a different point of view than you do. What is that some kind of threat? Internet do gooders? 
 
Now I can talk to other miners, but not what ever a surface manger is?? Whats that? You must be doing something not quite above board with the law
 
Now? Where the heck did I say anything about civil rights and mining? I have my rights and you have yours, unless your on probation. Are you smoking some of that Humboldt forest tobacco?  Were are you reading this stuff, go back and read it again and again util you comprehend what is written. This is the last time. 
 
Placer Miners ignore this post it doesn't concern you. River Panniers and sluice operators ignore this post it doesn't concern you. This is for Hard Rock miners only! I hope this is clear now. Please pitch in your comments as its a free country and I think I've explained this as simply as I possibly could.
 
Look we have rights as miners just as a any person who has any possessions. Can I come to your house while your at work and dig in your yard? Can I shoot up your address sign? Can I chain your door to my truck and yank it off it hinges to explore your house while I film it for YouTube. I said your house was abandoned on film before I went in so it must be the truth. I didn't break any laws, you shouldn't have be living there.
 
How much sense does that make. NONE. Well that's what I'm hearing it's OK with you to do.
 
There is one aspect you also didn't mention and that is claim jumping, someone digging on another persons claim. I have had more people digging on my claims than gophers in my lifetime. That is where I am using the rights granted to me and laws also granted to me. Its my minerals as long as I hold the claim, I can report anyone I find either on my claim or my neighbors because we look out for one another. You don't hear of that anymore do you. Yes my friend and fellow miner looks after my tunnel and discourages others from being in it on many occasions. As I have done for him and his family as there are people who feel its there right to take advantage of other peoples hard work and investments.
 
Also I have nothing to hide from any agency, I have made friends with my local sheriff, and forest service as well. If you fear an agency then your doing something illegal or your very paranoid. In hard rock you can't pick up your sluice and move to a new location, you can't just run away. I work with them I know them by name and they know me. I welcome any state of federal agency to come visit my claim. Why? Because you can use them for education and ideas to better your production. We have a trust relationship, I'm not worried about anybody coming to visit me because I'm only digging rocks out of a tunnel.
 
Listen to Geowizard: "That's right. We have become a society of litigation."
 
If you think its OK for YouTube guy to do what he likes, that's fine with me. I don't think you have a Hard Rock mine or you would be searching to see when he entered yours and gave out its location. For me I try to educate people I meet, its my private property, I show them my boundary markers . I show them I have signage for no digging of minerals, I looking into my trail cams today. I'm keeping written documentation information on vehicles and people who want to deliberately trespass. I've made some good friends over the years as well by talking with those who think they found a well marked by signs and gated abandoned Mine. Some who I see yearly during hunting season as well.
 
I do it to protect me and so I can now litigate with those who wish to take whats "mine" that's why its called a Mine! and not a Yours! That's my American rights and my opinion.
Sorry you don't agree. 
 
Read more into that 1872 mining act Its chocked full of the claim owners rights (not civil rights) and other law apply as well to miners you might find it interesting.  If the California Dredgers didn't come together that law would be written in stone and it would have spelled the end. But they did come together and now there joining with those in Oregon to battle the same stupid laws written by those who have no knowledge of what they are trying to enforce. So I hope whatever your doing never needs advise or help. Others may not see it the same way you do. Every Miner is my friend, I support mining and our community, were not always going to be on the same page about everything. But were there for one another, as this discussion proved so very well. (Internet Do gooders HA!)
 
If a Moderator wants to close this discussion I'm fine with it. I don't think there's anymore that can be intelligently said or discussed
Thank you!

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AuHunter Two I meant no offense but obviously some was taken. I'm sorry if the information I shared or my opinion made you uncomfortable.

 

Perhaps other posters will share opinions that are more in line with your beliefs. Thank you for sharing those beliefs with us again. I think I am fully informed about your position.

 

Heavy Pans

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AuHunter,

as a long time, and grateful reader of Steve's posts, I think there is a big misunderstanding here. Steve has been a huge supporter of mining for literally decades. Perhaps you may have heard of Alaska Mining and Diving Supply? He was a co-founder, did,and does much for the small mining community. Ditto for metal detecting folks.

   I would hazard a  guess that many others here, like myself, did not respond to your your original post because we are primarily hobbyists, prospectors, dredgers, and recreational miners who have jobs in other industries and have to settle for doing this on our free time.Living in WI, I have to travel to California or Alaska when I have the funds and time.  We do not have the answers to your problem. I wish I did as that guy trespassing your claim and others is dangerous.

   Others, who I have followed on the internet for years, such as Geo, Chris, Dick,and Steve all support mining, and have decades of experience as real miners. These men are the real deal. I am always happy to read and learn from their posts here and elsewhere. 

I hope you find a solution and share it as I am sure others are looking for it also.

Good luck,

Ron

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Well .... it seemed to me you were asking a legal question. I am no lawyer, my opinion really does not matter legally.

 

 What this person is doing may be morally wrong and dangerous, but being stupid is no crime. If he is breaking the

law, than I suggest the people he has infractioned should press charges.

 

 I try to use my common sense, that includes what I see on YouTube videos !

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Prospectors are an opinionated bunch passionate about what they do. Not a polite group of little old ladies. So the fur flies now and then, no big deal. If you ask for opinions, be prepared for ones you do not like. But at the end of the day let it go. Life is too short.

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That sort of behavior leads to the ultimate demise of well intentioned forums. It's one thing to put forward a challenging discussion on a topic. It is something entirely different to make abusive comments like "Are you smoking some of that Humboldt forest tobacco?".

 

- Geowizard

 

I agree Geowizard. This forum has the potential to become the most generally useful of all the mining forums in existance today. Besides the backing of the best small miners publication there are some very knowledgable miners contributing from day one. It's a combination that has been missing from the internet.

 

I look forward to a long and successful run for this forum but, as with all forums, posters will need to stick to reasonable discourse if it is to reach it's full potential.

 

Although we will invariably disagree or have different points of view on any given subject those disagreements can lead to a learning process or a flame war. It is up to each poster individually to make the choice as to whether to respond in a civil manner or to devolve into bickering and Ad hominem attacks.

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Anyone having issues with mineral trespass should consult an attorney and make a decision on whether the offender(s) should be taken through the criminal or civil court system. My experience is that most mineral trespass is harmless.

 

- Geowizard

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Dear Newbie,

 

I echo your sentiment about ne'er-do-wells who behave disrespectfully and irreverently on our claims. That said...

 

 

"... But today as miners were nothing but targets for lowlifes, tree huggers, under educated state and federal employees."
...not everyone in this community reflects your stated opinion of our state and federal employees. In my experience, many of them are rather quite over-educated, and some may even be considered professionals. That's how I like to think of them, and approach them, especially since I quite often intend to solicit their support on a varying range of issues. It's unwise, in my opinion, to dismiss so completely such a valuable resource, especially since they likely share our opinions of those vandals.
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I'm perhaps a bit different than most...I live 24/7 twelve months of the year here on these claims. I keep (like any well run mining site) a well dug deep excavation to deposit unwanted overburden in and if it floats I send it down river instead. I say this "tongue-in-cheek" but my point is that during my travels the thirty or so miles to town I am always watching the properties that I pass for anything out of the ordinary. I know the Sheriff and know my neighbors (good and bad). Make a point of getting to know those around you, don't be shy. And that is the best I can do. And ripping off 30 rounds every once in awhile is just down right fun on a Saturday afternoon. Game cameras (spendy when stolen) and those $14.00 battery operated road sensors from Harbor Frieght (not as spendy when stolen) that go BEEP BEEP BEEP when you pass can be a wakeup call that one is being watched!!

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Old thread, but thought I'd add a post and link to clarify.

Depending on the state statutes, "mineral trespass" certainly can be a criminal matter and enforceable by your local sheriff.

I would always call the local sheriff before I called the FS or BLM deputized agents for law enforcement matters.

 

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/01504.htm

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