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K Rose

3D Imaging,pulse Induction,etc.

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I would like feedback from those of you who have used this technology.From  the advertising I gather that there are several options to choose from.I know Accurate Locators would be glad to send me info but first I would like to hear from those of you who have personally used any of these in the field and how you would rate this product.There is nothing like tried and true testimonials from people who have spent their own hard earned money on something.

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K Rose,

 

You asked for feedback from users. I'm not an end user but I have studied, done research on and designed pulse induction systems used in mining exploration. The following information may not answer your questions but should provide more understanding about what the technology is all about.

 

I began studying pulse induction systems in the late 1970's. Barringer Research in Canada had developed a system called INPUT; Induced Pulse Transient system for conducting airborne geophysical surveys. Because it is well known from all of the previous science that electromagnetic energy reacts with conductive ore bodies and conductive metal objects, it would be a natural course to develop pulse induction technology.

 

The technology has applications and built-in limitations.

 

Pulse induction systems are "time domain". That's similar to a submarine using the echo from an object. The echo can tell how far or in this case deep the object is - but not "what" it is. Pulse Induction systems are therefore not discriminating.

 

Pulse Induction cannot do 3D. The reason is because the top of the object - looking down, is all that is seen. Pulse induction has many great applications in metal detection and large scale mining exploration. I would recommend reliance only on reputable manufacturers and avoid pseudo-science imitations. :)

 

- Geowizard

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Geo, Thank you for your reply.From reading the ads,I'm of the impression that the pulse induction and the 3D imaging are separate systems that they offer.If I could bother you a little further could I get you to look at the back page of the June 2013 issue and educate me on what type of technology their 3D pinpionter is.I am of the understanding that all this is in your field of expertise.So once again,thank you for your input.

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Computer color enhanced side scan sonar will outline ore bodies as have seen done but not anything else and I look constantly for new technology to make my job easier. Watch out for the pseudo science hucksters as a miner and his oro puro are soon parted-John

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To Geo,the only link I can give you is the one for Accurate Locators Inc at the bottom of the main page of the forum which is pretty detailed on all their merchandise. And to John;First of all thank you for your reply.So I take it that you have personally seen the 3D pinpionter outline ore bodies but have not been a witness to any of it's other claims.I agree with both of you that it is good to be wary ,there in lays the reason for me apealing to the 6300 some odd members of this forum in search of validity.As in all my purchases of mining eqiupment,I try to do my homework before making any outlay of capital.Still it is easy sometimes to still get burned.Perhaps any of the forum members that are in the Las Vegas Nevada area would be interested in calling this company for demonstrations of this and their other equipment and informing us of their findings.,and I'm fairly certain that if their claims are true,they will gladly welcome the free exposure that they would gain from this.

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With reference to "sonar" i.e. the use of sound waves; acoustic energy only responds to changes in density. It can be used to measure depth to bedrock because bedrock is more dense than alluvial sand and gravel.

 

Back to manufacturers of pulse induction or 3D systems, nobody is going to provide a negative review for obvious reasons of possible litigation. So, having said that, out of 6300 members, 1 percent have viewed this topic and one percent of the one percent has replied. My reply was not intended to provide a review of a specific system. I only suggest that any buyer understand the technology and the functional limits of that system. If a system is partly overstated, then it becomes a deal breaker for me.

 

There hasn't been any discussion yet on where and for what purpose, pulse induction has been selected as the tool of choice. Fugro Airborne www.fugroairborne.com has a TEM (Transient Electromagnetic) survey system that is flown on a helicopter and fixed wing aircraft. That system is flown all over the world by professionals that are on both sides of the table. That means the customer that is paying for the survey has a team of geologists and geophysicists that have specified a given system i.e. MEGATEM or other system as the preferred method to provide the data required in a known geological environment. The Fugro side of the table has a team of expert operators, geophysicists and supervisory support that make absolutely certain that the survey is done to the accuracy and precision that is required. They also offer interpretation of the data.

 

So, what is the probability that the average prospector might buy a system that "works" and not operate it properly or improperly apply or interpret the measurements and not get good results because of all of the above possibilities of improper use or application or interpretation?

 

Technology is good!

 

Technology has a learning curve. The learning curve involves the necessary preparation on a personal level. For example, I might query 1000 users and a majority had success. It may be because they took time to learn the details required to be successful. The ones that failed may have done the opposite. They were not prepared to properly operate, apply and interpret the results and failed in their efforts.

 

Just a few thoughts. :)

 

- Geowizard     

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Geo,thank you for your time and your thoughts.I remain optomistic that perhaps somehow we can rouse interest in a larger percentage of particapation among the 6300 despite the law of averages.I welcome new technology but want to be one of the ones as you say that takes the time to understand the application and the interpitation there of to be sucessful.God bless and take care.I'm off to read the new edition of ICMJ online.

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I have the Discovery show on tape where the folks took down a unit and saved the 16-1 mine in Grass Valley from closing by finding HUGE gold deposits many feet deep within the walls of old drifts. I want a screen that shows me what's down there as in nugget,coin,or relic before I dig. I started with the latest greatest technology in the day in 61, a Tandy Craft kit for a Heathkit BFO unit that you made. Laugh now but the beaches at Redondo,Hermosa,Manhatten and PV were paved with gold and silver as NO beach cleaning machines in them days--sooooo cooool. Gone through the TR trend,to vlf fantastic machine and pulse too. What a long strange trip as better gets better and unbelieveably soo. Looking forward to the brave new world of whatever comes as I try to run'm all-John

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John;I luv ya man. Keep those comments coming.Now to Geo;concerning your comment on selecting the tool of choice,this is getting to the heart of the matter.Before I can make that decision I have to better educate myself on the different technologies available.To know which works best for which application. To first understand the theory and then the pros and cons. In my opening statements I think you thought I was lumping every thing into one peice of equipment.I apologize for any misunderstanding.As far as litgigation goes ,the consumer has a right to say whether or not they were happy with their product or not without bad mouthing or being malicious of course.We see products being rated and tested every day in the media.In my own personal opinion even if a product is overstated,but does what I was looking for it to do; I would not turn it down on that merit alone.This has been an invigorating conversation and I look foward to your reply.

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There are mining districts in Arizona that I "fell in love with". That's an expression of having an unrealistic feeling that one place is more special than another. :)

 

I spent the past thirty plus years doing what you are beginning to do. Just like adolescence spawns curiosity and then "love" and then marriage and if it doesn't work out to really be "love" then love leads to divorce.

 

Let me explain;

 

As we explore the world around us and realize there are places... and there "may" be places that have gold, we look for methods to see what we cannot see with our ordinary senses. Metal detectors can do that. It doesn't take long to realize they can only measure a limited distance down into the earth.  

 

We want to see more!

 

What lies below the one or two feet that a normal metal detector can measure? What discoveries remain to be discovered that have not been discovered? There are companies (some are predatorial) that understand that passion and precocious desire to find the hidden "mother lode"! Occasionally, the combination of money and uncontrollable passion for discovery coincide with reading an ad for "the tool". Bingo!  Usually the scenario of excitement and hope leads to confusion, frustration and hopelessness. I think most treasure hunters end up broke and confused. It doesn't have to happen that way!

 

The work has already been done!

 

I don't "love" Arizona. Although I live here and have loved many mining districts, as Taylor Swift put it so well... (paraphrasing) "It's over now".

 

Are there other, better places that offer opportunity? Life is short and time cannot be wasted. Money is getting to be in short supply too! So, in order to save time and money, it would be advisable to look for the short path to the objective!  The State of Alaska has done geophysical surveys on most of the primary gold producing districts. These are professional surveys that cover hundreds of thousands of line-miles.

 

"The work has already been done!" Anyone can go online to Alaska DGGS and look at their pages on a long list of mining districts and SEE firsthand, color presentation of conductive anomalies and magnetic anomalies and where you find both, that's a good thing!

 

If gold is the objective, Alaska has the solution.

 

Western states in the CONUS are placing barriers in the way of mining faster than miners and mining companies can climb over them. A dredge permit in Alaska can be obtained within days and a full blown commercial mining permit within weeks or a couple of months. Most Alaskans also speak the same language and have the same customs we have. So, with similar customs and a stable pro-mining political climate AND GOLD, the decision for me was an easy one!

 

- Geowizard

 

www.alaska-gold.com

www.stampede-gold.com

www.ophir-alaska.com

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I am the only member of my immediate family who has not spent time in Alaska.In my younger years I turned down several opportunities to go there because my first wife did not want to leave her family.Knowing what I know now I should have gone on without her.Eversince my present wife and I got the fever for prospecting,Alaska has loomed in the back of our minds.My wife is a school teacher and I am an occaisonal Industrial Electrician.When summer comes we hit the road.We have been blessed to find that little yellow metal in many a state of this great country.But we continue to romance the notion that Alaska is next on our list.Not living in a mineralized zone leaves us always considering the option of pulling up roots but  we always seem to find a reason why it's not time yet. We are seriously contemplating that next summer is the summer for Alaska.Leave the travel trailer home,travel light and rough it like we used to do.We have given a lot of thought to the Chicken area but nothing is set in stone. We always try to leave our options open in case something better appears at the last minute.Thank you for the links and the tip on what to look for.I will still entertain the the thought of having  some form of modern technology of my own to tinker with and if there are any other links on that subject that you could turn me on to besides regular metel detectors to expand my knowledge I would be greatly appreciative.God Bless.

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K Rose,

 

You have provided an interesting topic. :)

 

Successful mid scale and large mining companies use geophysics to find the right places to do core drilling and other follow-up using geochemical sampling programs. It's good thinking to model your program according to tried and proven programs. There are failures too. When I see failed attempts at efforts to prospect and discover and then failed efforts at developing a profitable mine - I look for the root causes of those failures.

 

At my mine in Ophir, I have several geophysical systems. I have an SP system, IP/Resistivity system and a two coil Crone Geophysics EM system.

 

They haven't been used!

 

Because I used other tools, got organized and toughed it out through an arduous (non profit) sampling campaign, I am on the gold. You are welcome to visit the operation during the coming 2014 season. I plan to employ some of the geophysical tools to chase a geological feature known as an intrusive and possibly find other intrusives.  

 

More coming soon - gotta go for now!

 

- Geowizard

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Geo,you have sparked my curiosity and would dearly love a theological breakdown of each of the systems you mentioned.If God and good fortune smile upon us to make the journey north this comming summer we definitly would like to add that to our trip.From your thread on your operation at Ophir,I understand that you are employing the use of a couple of bobcats to move your dirt.I might could be persuaded to spend a day or two on one as to me that is playing and not working.I should have been a heavy equipment operator instead of an electrician which I tolerated for the money.Combine that with gold and I would be in heaven.But either way it would be nice just to see your systems to get a better understanding of the process involved.Time to sign off and drag out the map to find Ophir and daydream for a little bit.The future is always uncertain but if at first you don't percieve you don't get to be. 

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After looking at the map coupled with a few web searches and realizing the size of your operation.,I gather that we would need to fly in either from Fairbanks or Anchorage. Most likely Fairbanks if we go to Chicken.Also I could not get the ophir-gold.com to come up.Tried several times to no avail.Would be interesting for a small scale miner such as I to see a large operation in action.I am also curious about how you plan to process the load ore when you get to that point being that the district is so isolated. So many details to ponder.Gone for now---KRose.

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Wish ya all the luck in the world-been there a couple of adventures back in the 70-80's a a beautiful place to see. BUT between the insideous bugs, bloody cold, permafrost, bears up the wazoo and them unfriendly moose, mud Muck MIRE, lack of sun and COSTS beyond comprehension I'll never go back again. And to make it unliveable NO ALCOHOL AREAS-well that's the end game-John

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John brings up some interesting points. Mining during the summer months requires preparation. Mosquitoes can be dealt with using mosquito nets outdoors as well as application of mosquito repellant. I don't recommend mining in a tank top and shorts. Full dress with long sleeved shirt and gloves keeps mosquitoes under control. As far as Moose are concerned, Ophir has its share. The situations of unfriendly Moose have never occurred. I meet Moose on the road almost every day. They usually look confused and disappear quickly. Having hunted Black Bear in Alaska when I lived there, I never got close enough to shoot. Black Bears are shy of humans and although you hear about attacks, I have never had any problems with bears. One situation happened when someone else killed a Beaver and left it near their camp and a bear came in to get the beaver. I have a policy of no shooting. I'm there to mine gold and "it isn't a shooting gallery". Without doubt, it is tougher in Alaska.

 

As far as cold weather goes, it's usually quite warm. Some evenings are almost too warm to sleep comfortably. Early May is cold but it warms up during the day. I installed an oil heating stove at the cabin so heating isn't much of a problem. I also have broadband wifi at the cabin and use Skype for video communication or for phone calls.

 

The link was supposed to be www.ophir-alaska.com.

 

K Rose, getting back to your original reasons for starting this topic;

 

The geophysical methods I mentioned above are electrical methods. Understanding how electricity works and knowing the difference between volts and amps is a good background to have. :)

 

SP:

 

SP stands for Spontaneous Potential. In a nutshell, the earth produces a voltage near mineralized sulfide intrusives. The voltage is produced when natural sulfur combines with water (H2O) and makes a solution of sulfuric acid that reacts with metals resulting in a voltage that can be measured. All that is needed is a low cost Digital Volt Meter and a reel of wire. Cheap, simple and reliable. I met a Geophysicist, Dr. Skokan from the Colorado School of Mines, ten years ago or so and although I knew about the method, he uses it all over the world in his work exploring for gold deposits.

 

IP:

 

IP stands for Induced Polarization. In areas that have disseminated mineralization in the form of metal, the metals can become charged like a capacitor and store electrical potential. It's called "chargeability". So, using a DC voltage and a reversing switch, two probes are plugged into the ground. A circuit is formed with the DC voltage and reversing switch and the earth. When the system is switched "on", a current flows into the surrounding earth and the earth becomes charged. When the switch is turned "off", the earth discharges like a capacitor discharges. Depending on the time required to discharge, a DC voltage is measured, and when you do that along a line, you can measure the chargeability of the earth and survey the amount of metallic mineralization.

 

Resistivity:

 

Resistivity is a method that geos back to the early 1900's. Because the earth conducts electricity because there are conductive forms of mineralization, it should be apparent that using a DC voltage source and measuring the current, you can also measure the resistance of the earth. Resistance and conductance are inversely related. Mapping along survey lines will create a profile of the amount of conductive mineralization.

 

EM:

 

Electromagnetic methods are based on the same principles of low cost metal detectors but just done on a larger scale. 

 

3D:

 

If you measure one survey point - that's 1D. If you measure a line of survey points and create a cross-section (slice) of the earth along that line - that's 2D. Combining parallel survey lines will create a 3D presentation of the shallow subsurface.

 

- Geowizard     

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Upon preliminary reading; with the SP;what amount of voltage are we looking for?Are we talking about milliamps here or are we dealing with higher voltage? what is the range of voltage that I need to look for?With IP; am I more concerned with the time limit of discharge or the amount of direct current that is measured or the corrolation of both together.What is the ideal balance between the two that I would be looking for?With resistivity we're basicly talking about ohms here;right? So I've been carrying gold finding technology around in my toolbag all along.---KRose

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Upon further review;I gather thet the SP would be more advantagious in exploring for certain types of ore bodies while the IP would be more condusive to placer exploration?Have I come to right conclusion or have I gotten off base?----KRose. 

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Excellent! :)

 

Spontaneous potential is measured in millivolts. Because it is a low voltage, non-polarized electrodes are used to plug into the earth. The electrodes will set you back a hundred bucks or so www.tinker-rasor.com . With reference to IP; you can use the SP electrodes to measure the discharge voltage. The current transmitter uses metal stakes that are driven into the ground. The process involves measuring the current and pulsing the ground for a fixed time and reversing the flow for the same cycle time. The voltage measurements are on the range of a few volts depending on the time window of the discharge and the applied current.

 

For the geophysical purist, I would also comment that resistance is different than resistivity. Resistance is equal to voltage divided by current (ohms law). Resistivity is based on voltage divided by current multiplied by a geometric constant (k). Resistance is measured in ohms and resistivity is measured in ohm-meters or ohm-feet depending on the geometry involved.

 

- Geowizard

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So my next question is in reference to IP;I would be using a 12v batterry with a toggle switch and my leads clipped to my metal stakes to induce the current and my voltage meter is attached to the electrodes for my reading?Also how far apart do I position the metal stakes from each other and how close are the electrodes placed in relation to to the metal stakes?----KRose

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