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Terry Soloman

Plp: Is This Org Really Helping?

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They are one of the few groups that have taken the USFS, BLM and state agencies to court -- and won in a number of cases -- so it is the only group we (ICMJs Prospecting and Mining Journal) actively support. I prefer them to some of the others out there because they have a "no compromise" philosophy regarding miner's rights.

 

It's my understanding they will also come to the aid of a miner to help fund a court battle if losing the case could negatively impact other miners and if the miner agrees not to compromise.

 

It's ironic that I saw this post today -- I'm at the Puyallup GPAA show at the moment and I handed Jerry Hobbs of PLP a check for $2,500 this morning to help fund several of their ongoing court cases.

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Their failures far outweigh any miniscule accomplishments. The deliberate destruction and decimation of the dredge committee in 1994 was the death of dredging. Without a standing committee we were left with NO representation as now seen with Karuk and other environutz on the committee. The backroom deal to limit AB 670 to a 20 minute window and subsequent FILLABUSTER by the 3-first the supervisor-we have 36,000 people,600 cows and 4 sheep,followed by I'm a lawyer prove us wrong(steinburg said oh (censored)kaka another damn lawyer-have to listen to the cd again as quite funny- and last but not least Elmer Fudd with the same ol'insipid The 1872 mining laws blah blah being read from a prepared statement. Then Steinburg blew a gasket-are you reading a prepared statement-no-then looks at paper and back to same ol' blah blah blah verbatum. The were 17 miners,engineers and professional miners with 100s of years of experience waiting to prove our points and answer the committee questions and not a single was allowed to speak as the PREAPPROVED FILLABUSTER BY THE HYPOTHETICAL PROFESSIONALS  had it covered and none answered in any form but duh,well have to get back to ya on that. So get a copy of the CD as that;s the day the second cut to dredgings throat was applied and the day dredging died a slow and long anguished death. I provided each and every board member of the committee with a comprehensive printed 25+ page mailed package 10 days prior to the hearing with all pertinent information from EPA,health dept,scientific studies,mercury collection reports from 2 states,and much more and NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM LAZY DOGS EVEN HEARD OF IT-Voting done and dredging died..... No I would rather masticate fesces and die than support that CENSORED -John

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So John, what do you REALLY think?

Are they any better alternative organizations to support? I give my support in a more generalized way by being a member of three different mining associations. The mining associations are roundly panned by the small mining community as being there only for the big guys. I did some of the front line stuff as have you but have stepped aside from that these days. Seriously though, a person wants to support mining by supporting just one organization, which one would you support?

Steve Herschbach, Member

Alaska Miners Association, Nevada Mining Association, and Northwest Mining Association

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I agree Steve. There aren't a lot of people out there that will stand up for us and what we enjoy to do. I would rather give it to them than some crooked lawyer that says they want to help but end up taking a vacation on it.

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Not directly mining related but another very successful group that has great resources and knowledge relating to public land access. Western Slope No Fee

 

If you are still paying for access to public lands you might want to study their multiple wins against fees like the "Adventure Pass". The 9th Circuit has ruled more than once that these parking, hiking and picnicking fees are illegal. Definitely of benefit to prospectors and miners.

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Guest Chris Ralph

I checked though the Mountain States listing and found more stuff helpful to cattle ranchers and not much for miners. I do agree that some of these other issues like parking fees are important, but most of these groups wont help miners directly because we are politically unpopular. There is money for ranchers and hunters and these are not so hated as mining, so they get more attention. A lot of these ancillary groups just wont touch things that are related to small scale mining. We need a group like PLP to address that need. Big Mining Companies have their lawyers, but no one speaks up for the small miners - PLP does a god job at it in spite of JO's comments.

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Does PLP send out or publish an annual report on their budget, or a breakdown of how donations are spent? What portion of each dollar raised goes to travel and administration expenses versus education, litigation, yadda, yadda, yadda? Thank you to all for the information. 

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When donkies fly and chickens talk. Pacific Legal Foundation--Blue Ribbin and on and on. If the 1994 permanent committee wasn't bushwacked by a group of profiteers and malcontents we'd a had joint PAID projects to have proven dredgings helps in mercury removal and impaction relief  in the motherlode in 2 spots for YEARS long paid projects. We'd a had over 26 miles of openings,a standing committee to squash all bs and lies that came up as now by the dozen from waterboard,environutz,karuk and others. NOW they ARE the committee that we are damned by---great going by PLP,Horseshoe,GPAA, and Motherlode absolute refusal to discuss,participate,just sit there and go ALL OR NUTTN' sis sic sic. The CDFG biologists were excited and had plenty of questions and ALL asked for help on projects to accomplish goals. Bill Maxwell ,guided by Stephanie Tong(sexy lawyer) along with Terry Valier(sp)s from Forest Service went dredging with us on the Trinity in 30" a water on a illegal 10" with no permits-NOW THAT'S PROGRESS but thrown in the toilet by averise,greed,corruption,backroom deals to fillabuster and perpetuate this mess forever for personal gain. Now the klamathh antimining cancer has invaded Oregon and now Idaho new regs essentially kill dredging there now too. Past history is the foundation of our present LL ful of misery and please don't forget who brought it to your front door-John

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You might want to take a closer look at Mountain States Chris. They are involved in a lot of cases so the mining cases may be a little hard to find in there but they are truly significant. Here are a few of the more significant cases affecting miners directly.

 

=================================================

 

Minard Run II 

 

This is possibly the most significant mining case{s) in the last 20 years. The Forest Service denied Minard their right to the benefit of their mineral estate underlaying a Weeks Law Forest in Pennsylvania.

 

The Forest service tried to do an end run around Minards rights by making a bogus "settlement" with a greenie organization when the group sued the Forest Service to stop them from approving Minards notice. The Forest Service did not want to approve the notice and collaborated with the greenie group to make a quick agreement to block Minard rather than hear the case in court. Sound familiar?

 

Pay attention to how the courts slapped down those sort of sweetheart "settlements" and then went on to spank the Forest Service for even thinking Minard had to get their approval to access their property.

 

This case has been written about extensively and is the subject of many papers on mining. Here is a taste from Harvard Law Review:

 

The case explores the extent to which the U.S. Forest Service, as the land management agency with jurisdiction over the surface, could regulate this surface access.  Minard Run II ultimately holds, perhaps surprisingly, that the Forest Service had no regulatory authority beyond what a private surface owner would have in an analogous situation ..
 
The court rejected the applicability of NEPA, consequently holding that private mineral rights owners do not need Forest Service authorization before disturbing the ANF surface, provided they supply the Forest Service with sufficient notice of their surface use plans. 
 
=================================================
 
 
I know you are familiar with Donald Eno and his Houndog claim. He continued on since his win and MSLF is supporting him in his efforts to get compensation for his expenses.
 
=================================================
 
 
No Mystery here. A solid mining permitting case well known to your readers. MSLF entered the case on behalf of North West Mining Assoc.
 
=================================================
 
 
Whether a State, under the EPA, can set water quality standards for mining that are greater than existing water quality.
 
(The answer is NO)
 
=================================================
 
 
Whether the BLM can void a mining claim due to their own loss of the
required filings.
 
The BLM "lost" these miners annual filings and closed their claims.
 
=================================================
 

 

 

Whether the BLM and Forest Service can declare that structures on a mining
patent are the property of the US.
 
=================================================
 
 
Can the forest service bulldoze existing shafts on a current mining claim?
 
The Forest Service settled out of court by paying the Marstons $245,206 in compensation and damages.
 
=================================================
 
 
Can the BLM cancel a mineral lease because the lessee did not respond to a notice that was never sent to him.
 
=================================================
 
 
Whether a federal regulatory agency may avoid observance of federal law and void small mining claims?
 
=================================================
 
 
Opposing the million acre mineral closure outside the Grand Canyon park.
 
=================================================
 

CABOOSE MINING COMPANY v. U.S. FOREST SERVICE

 

Refusal to allow maintenance of an existing grandfathered mining access road.

 

=================================================

 

So there are eleven cases Mountain States represented in that are all solid mining issues and all arguably have a direct effect on miners and mining rights in the United States. Most of these cases are about individual or small miners. There are more mining cases in there if you look around.

 

A lot of their cases are about land and water access. Several relate directly to the incursions by the EPA through the Clean Water Act. I think the dredgers in Idaho will appreciate the foundation in law that has been established by MSLF if they have problems with the EPA's bogus and illegal "small miners dredge permit".

 

You might have other issues with MSLF but I think if you take a close look you will find they are probably the most active and effective organization helping small miners fight unjust government intrusion.

 

My point is that PLP is not the only organization that helps small miners. There are choices and some of them, like Mountain States Legal Foundation have been very effective.

 

 

 

 

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Terry, as you know my wife Leigh, was a CPA and CFO of several large organizations including government, business and non-profit. She specialized in audits. 

 

I had the same questions as you about PLP's finances. Leigh reviewed PLP's 990's and their structure over time. Besides paying minimal advertising, transportation, lodging and meals their only real expense is the legal fees paid to one lawyer. No other wages or salaries just one lawyer's fees.

 

They appear to be a straight up organization on a very small budget. You won't find any funny business with their funds. They are an honest group trying to do the right thing with very little money.

 

As far as whether it's money well spent? You would have to judge the performance of that one lawyer since that is where virtually all donations have gone for the last 12 - 14 years.

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Terry, as you know my wife Leigh, was a CPA and CFO of several large organizations including government, business and non-profit. She specialized in audits. 

 

I had the same questions as you about PLP's finances. Leigh reviewed PLP's 990's and their structure over time. Besides paying minimal advertising, transportation, lodging and meals their only real expense is the legal fees paid to one lawyer. No other wages or salaries just one lawyer's fees.

 

They appear to be a straight up organization on a very small budget. You won't find any funny business with their funds. They are an honest group trying to do the right thing with very little money.

 

As far as whether it's money well spent? You would have to judge the performance of that one lawyer since that is where virtually all donations have gone for the last 12 - 14 years.

Thank you!

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I share the same frustrations we are seeing here and on other sites regarding our fight against the radical environmentalists. We’re getting our ass kicked. I do not however, in any way intend to diminish the hard work of PLP, The Blue Ribbon Coalition, The Congressional Sportsmen Foundation, Pacific Legal Foundation and many others who are fighting for our rights while over 90% of the outdoorsmen community do nothing more than bitch on their forum(s) of choice. However, I suggest that we step back and look at the bigger issues.
 

First, if it is not obvious that laws, science and commonsense hold little value to our opposition then you’re really not paying attention.

 

Second, we need to understand our enemy: what are their motives, beliefs, structure and primary targets; are their tactics successful and predictable?     

 

What we’re up against is 40+ years of socialist ideology that infiltrated our schools, government agencies and court systems to institute their collectivism ideology.  This minority has successfully changed or at least bent our culture and heritage as Americans to a point that their boldness is no longer concealed. Law and science is now commonly defined by their attorneys, judges and lap-dog media outlets. To continue as-is, we lose.

 

Their leaders know this and are working hard to accelerate their schedule. They also know we are the majority and their biggest fear is that somehow we unite and organize before their generations of zombies overrun the dwindling authority of our elders. Soon the American Heritage will die out if we continue as we are, and their generation will rule America.

 

Fact: All outdoorsmen have the same enemy; which uses the same tools and techniques against each of us to achieve their goals; The Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, Executive orders that grant the EPA the authority to create and enforce regulations without congressional oversight, and radical law firms that bully underfunded government agencies to accept their ideology.

 

What if we united and organized all outdoorsmen: Hunters, Fishermen, Miners, OHV & ATV Users, Mountain Bikers, Kayakers, Rafters, Treasure Hunters, Backpackers and all other outdoorsmen into one force and focused our efforts to defeating the core of our enemy? 

 

This is our goal; to unite and organize the biggest voting and economic sector in the US; the Outdoorsmen. Unfortunately we are still fragmented, bickering and working against each other; by design…  

 

I envision a union of outdoorsmen bound by a common enemy and specific goals to ensure our access and use of Public Lands. This vast union comprised of 1/3 of the voting population which generates over 500 billion annually shall match or exceed the resources of the environmentalists' giving us the advantage to restore our American Heritage.

 

I call this union Wilderness Nation and have been quietly working for the past two years to implement this movement. We have massive databases that collect every outdoorsmen organization across the nation by user-group and are in the process of completing the economic impact and voter significance of the outdoorsmen community.  The business plan is complete, the branding, website and forums are 90% complete and the strategic relations are being arranged.

 

For additional information please PM me as further discussion would not be appropriate on this public forum.   

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Mr Oates,

I wish to thank you for your valuable input.

I shall be sending my money to PLP for thier drawing. If I should win a prize that I really don't need, I will donate it back for the next drawing.

Again sir, my thanks.

eric

 

PS. Your avatar looks like something I would expect to see from a WWE retiree. A long sleeve shirt would make a world of difference. And now to the ICMJ for the web addy for PLP. I don't bullshit.

 

Editted to add: web addy is out4gold510@hotmail.com from page 8 May 2013 ICMJ

Edited by Eric N

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